Colleagues: I think this message raises an important idea, and I hope that I am able to offer something valuable to the discussion. While there might be a tendency to feel the need to explain what we are supposed to do and why, I want to take a crack at explaining why someone might fall into the trap of not putting enough structure into the structured discovery method. While laziness is possible, I think there's another possibility, too. I think we can all agree that we are the minority in our field. It's true by sheer numbers, and it's apparent in how we are trained as instructors. Since we are the minority, we have to learn all about the majority, but the majority doesn't really have to learn about us and our style. Without ever having attended a class in a COMS masters program, I am sure that they don't dive as deeply into what we do as we dive into what they do. When a minority defines itself, it is very common for the minority to do so with respect to the majority. In our case, people will often say that we use less guided learning and more discovery learning. This can lead members of the minority to focus too heavily upon the characteristics that make it different from the majority because those differences are what are emphasized in the definition of the minority. This could lead an NOMC to focus too heavily on discovery learning. I think this is an important thing for a member of any minority group to manage to ensure that we are truly operating based on the core principles of what we do rather than what differentiates us from the majority. In that light, I would choose to focus on encouraging those NOMCs with that tendency to think of themselves as a part of the NOMC family with Roland, Marco, Jeff Altman, etc., instead of focusing on being different from the COMS network. Yours, Justin Salisbury Justin Salisbury - Running Thunder Phoenix Graduate Student Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness Louisiana Tech University Email: President at Alumni.ECU.edu Twitter: @SalisburyJustin First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out- Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out- Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out- Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me-and there was no one left to speak for me. Martin Niem?ller From: NOMC [mailto:nomc-bounces at lists.nbpcb.org] On Behalf Of Lansaw,Jane (DARS) Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 7:56 AM To: Maurice Peret <mperet at BISM.org>; Edward Bell <ebell at pdrib.com>; NOMC Mailing list <nomc at lists.nbpcb.org> Subject: Re: [Nomc] Discussion: Structure versus Discovery Hi folks, I think we seem to agree. It isn't something inherent in the NOMC, probably just some na?ve or lazy teachers. I've seen some COMS laying around my office who prefer to drive students everywhere so they don't have to wait around on a bus with them. Their students get little actual bus travel. Personally I send students out on their own to key locations as soon as I know they can handle the streets and/or area but I've observed them enough to know. I go with them to more difficult areas or less familiar ones till the end of their training when I start sending them to unfamiliar areas alone. I have bench marks in my head that I want to see them pass before they go here, there and that other place alone. I pop up out there on occasion but at some point, when they have reached an intermediate skill level, I want them to have one completely independent lesson a week. This means if it gets to be Friday and they haven't had their indy that week, I hold off on the new place I've been excited about trying. I also don't whip out the tried and true independent lessons like the store they go to on weekends with the easy route. I save those for sick days when I know they are absolutely on their own. I don't waste easy routes during cold and flu season when I know I may need to be out. Frankly, my students get pulled out of class for this, that and the other reason so finding time to write reports isn't a problem for me. Of course between my undergrad English professors, Harold Wilson of Ruston and Jeff Altman of Nebraska, I've learned to be pretty efficient in reports. I can whip out a report on a cooperative student in ten minutes and a problem student in a half hour- well, maybe 45 minutes if I need a thesaurus to be more positive. LOL. From: NOMC [mailto:nomc-bounces at lists.nbpcb.org] On Behalf Of Maurice Peret Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 12:03 PM To: Edward Bell; NOMC Mailing list Subject: Re: [Nomc] Discussion: Structure versus Discovery Thank you, Dr. Bell, for including this thread on our NOMC discussion forum. I believe it is always helpful to be reminded of best practices and professional conduct. To be sure, there are countless days in the cold of winter and in the heat of summer when outdoor travel is less desirable than at other times for both student and instructor. I am also aware of the temptation to put off actual teaching of certain skills on the curriculum spectrum until the arrival of more conducive weather or otherwise better days. Necessity, however, is the mother of invention and bad weather days provide optimal learning occasions. To me, the most important benefit of the structured portion of SDCT instruction is in the instructor's observation of student reactions to problem solving opportunities. For example, when a student has a doctor's appointment, it cannot be easily put off until better weather or reverted to by getting there in an alternate fashion, e.g. by being driven there or by otherwise avoiding implementing the skills that have been learned thus far. If students are traveling entirely without an instructor early on in their training, allowing for some hyperbole here, then it might reasonably be assumed that the student is not being sufficiently challenged and that training may even not be necessary at that stage. AT the point when students are performing address locations and the like, they are generally equipped to travel unsupervised. I think it is critical to bear in mind that confidence building is still occurring which means there is still plenty of opportunities to, say, revert back to old habits, whether this is manifested in the form of relaxing the use of sleepshades because they know the instructor rarely comes out to check at this stage, over reliance upon sighted assistance, or even more drastic forms, calling a cab to cut the trip short or whatever. There must exist a level of trust between the instructor and student such that it is expected that at any time, the instructor can and will periodically observe travel routes in progress. There is thus a genuine and demonstrated interest on the part of the instructor in the student's progress. Not amounting simply to "checking up on them" but to genuinely witness the transforming results we know happens in SDCT training. Besides, without periodic observation at all stages of training, our reports can begin to lack substance, another professional practice we must always be diligent to stay on top of. Finally, the worst danger can set in if the observation wanes too early or too infrequently inasmuch as the instructor can actually miss progress, glumly determining that they know the limitations of a given student and begin to lower their expectation of their being able to overcome perceived limitations. We all have days when we're just not up to being out there on the streets. We can be creative on those rare but infrequent occasions, being aware of the danger of cutting short the learning opportunities for our students. Maurice Peret From: NOMC [mailto:nomc-bounces at lists.nbpcb.org] On Behalf Of Edward Bell Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 10:12 AM To: NOMC Mailing list Subject: [Nomc] Discussion: Structure versus Discovery Dear NOMC, Although this list is primarily for posting jobs and other announcements, we did set it up as a discussion list and from time to time we have enjoyed a bit of back and forth on important topics. I received the below correspondence from an NOMC and I thought it was a good question and a good thing for all of us to think about and ponder. I have tried to take care to remove the personally identifying information about the person and state, but I do think that this is perhaps a broader issue and one that we should talk about openly. Maybe it is a growing problem, maybe it is not. What say you all? *** I have now seen three other NOMC's come through our state agency/center. ... , I have got to work with a few that have made their way through. I have seen a common problem that concerns me. The problem is that I have seen all three of these NOMC's sit in their office all day long and never leave to teach-students are just ALWAYS sent out on independent routes. I have gotten their students when they have moved on or left the center/agency that have been here for months but are nowhere near where they should be. All of them have mentioned to me that their travel instructor never went out with them on routes. This concerns me a lot, and I'm not sure if it's a state problem or an NOMC wide one, but I suspect that this is NOT the only place this happens. I see this becoming a major issue in our field--that maybe we are understanding the independence aspect and structured discovery method the wrong way. In our Master's program, you and Darick always drilled into us the value of guided learning and teaching the skill set first--so I'm not sure why this is happening. I am concerned that this "laziness" (which is how I see it) might negatively impact our growth in the field and might need to be addressed. Maybe I'm way off--maybe it is just a center/state thing--if so, feel free to tell me. My frustration stems from teaching students who claim they are not getting any, or minimal, one-on-one instruction. My suggestion is some kind of friendly reminder to NOMC's about the value of hands on instruction and the detriments of leaving students to learn it ALL on their own. *** What do you all think? Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC Director, Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness Louisiana Tech University 210 Woodard Hall PO Box 3158 Ruston LA 71272 Office: 318.257.4554 Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax) Skype: edwardbell2010 ebell at latech.edu www.pdrib.comhttp://www.pdrib.com ************************************************************** "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." -- Stephen Jay Gould

Some quick comments. I'm getting the sense that most structured discovery instructors go out with their students even in latter part of the instructional sequence in order to observe a student development. I think most instructors also provide independent practice at all levels of instruction when appropriate. I have a suspicion that we may be dealing with an isolated instance with a particular instructor. That said, I wonder why the individual who wrote this note initially did not confront the instructor in question. Or if appropriate, discuss the issue with the supervisor. I'm personally not certain how I would handle a situation like this where I an instructor noticing the behavior of another instructor, but I frankly feel the instructor in question may sort of be on blast and I'm not certain thats appropriate. That said, it is important to pull our instructor base to find out how instructors are handling the balance between guided, observed, and independent practice. I think much depends on where you work, who you are working with, and the stage of development each student is in. Respectfully, Jedi Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 31, 2015, at 1:52 PM, David Nietfeld <dnietfeld at cocenter.org> wrote:

I would like to reiterate a few points in story form.

When I first started using alternative techniques in travel, I was determined to be able to get everywhere I wanted to go. After a few chicken out attempts to cross a four lane road I began to discover on my own things that I already knew that I could utilize nonvisual. For example at this intersection I knew that the perpendicular traffic would stop when it was my turn to cross. So I used that primarily to cross streets. The problem was I didn?t know anything about lining up, so I continued to try to use the stopped traffic. This is great for half the street, but not so good for the other half!

So after some successful trips across this road which I had to cross to get to work, home from school, and cross it to and from the grocery store. I began to feel a little better. However I began to start crossing as soon as they first stopped which caused some different problems. Several times I turned with the left turn cycle and began walking down the street I was trying to cross. I knew this was not ideal but I didn?t know what to do different.

I needed more structure to my technique used to cross streets. A few months down the road I arrived at a NFB training center. I learned many useful techniques to help with these problems and many others. This is what our job is to provide helpful skills and techniques so that they can be safe. At that point help others learn of there responsibility for them self, challenge them so they have a belief in the structure we have given them and incur age them to build on this by discovering everything else that we may not even recognize yet.

It is a tragedy to think we would make people rediscover everything we already know, when we can help guide them to surpass our current skills and techniques. Without the training I received I would not be where I am now. It seems li8ke the curve would have been a much more gradual curve.my own discovery helped with the structure I learned later on, and my continued discoveries can help with others learning process today. There discoveries can potentially help me gain some lessons in the future.

Thanks

David Nietfeld

Colorado Center for the Blind 2233 W. Shepperd ave. Littleton, Co 80120 303-720-1434 ext. 228 dnietfeld at cocenter.org

_______________________________________________ NOMC mailing list NOMC at lists.nbpcb.org http://lists.nbpcb.org/listinfo.cgi/nomc-nbpcb.org

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 31, 2015, at 1:52 PM, David Nietfeld <dnietfeld at cocenter.org> wrote:

I would like to reiterate a few points in story form.

When I first started using alternative techniques in travel, I was determined to be able to get everywhere I wanted to go. After a few chicken out attempts to cross a four lane road I began to discover on my own things that I already knew that I could utilize nonvisual. For example at this intersection I knew that the perpendicular traffic would stop when it was my turn to cross. So I used that primarily to cross streets. The problem was I didn?t know anything about lining up, so I continued to try to use the stopped traffic. This is great for half the street, but not so good for the other half!

So after some successful trips across this road which I had to cross to get to work, home from school, and cross it to and from the grocery store. I began to feel a little better. However I began to start crossing as soon as they first stopped which caused some different problems. Several times I turned with the left turn cycle and began walking down the street I was trying to cross. I knew this was not ideal but I didn?t know what to do different.

I needed more structure to my technique used to cross streets. A few months down the road I arrived at a NFB training center. I learned many useful techniques to help with these problems and many others. This is what our job is to provide helpful skills and techniques so that they can be safe. At that point help others learn of there responsibility for them self, challenge them so they have a belief in the structure we have given them and incur age them to build on this by discovering everything else that we may not even recognize yet.

It is a tragedy to think we would make people rediscover everything we already know, when we can help guide them to surpass our current skills and techniques. Without the training I received I would not be where I am now. It seems li8ke the curve would have been a much more gradual curve.my own discovery helped with the structure I learned later on, and my continued discoveries can help with others learning process today. There discoveries can potentially help me gain some lessons in the future.

Thanks

David Nietfeld

Colorado Center for the Blind 2233 W. Shepperd ave. Littleton, Co 80120 303-720-1434 ext. 228 dnietfeld at cocenter.org

_______________________________________________ NOMC mailing list NOMC at lists.nbpcb.org http://lists.nbpcb.org/listinfo.cgi/nomc-nbpcb.org