I do agree with a lot of this. I think this may be a great topic for us to discuss at our check-in meeting with everyone on October 16th . How does this sound to everyone? Jimmie Morris

On Sep 20, 2023, at 3:40 PM, jackson.dezman at gmail.com wrote:

? Jeff,

I did attend it. Firstly, very nice comments you had. I feel like Dr. Laura Bosman had the most progressive thinking out of the 2 presenters. It was kind of hard to get a read on Dr. Griffin-Shirley.

I know the presentation centered around accommodating blind and low vision O&M instructor trainees as it related to instruction, but I guess I was surprised and had forgotten about the lack of emphasis on personal travel skill development in these programs as opposed to our program at Tech. It seems that their observations of blind instructors centered mostly if not completely around NOMC, which is great, but I would love to see them expand it to a larger group and/or those trained under the COMS/ACVREP model. Would love to hear your thoughts Jeff.

Thanks, Dezman

From: NOMC <nomc-bounces at lists.nbpcb.org> On Behalf Of Altman, Jeff Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 11:46 AM To: NOMC Mailing list <NOMC at lists.nbpcb.org> Subject: [Nomc] Wonderring about how many attended the Presentation last evening

Hello Everyone,

I?m wondering how many of you attended the ?Successful Strategies Employed by O&M Candidates and Blind O&M Specialists,? presented by Dr. Nora Griffin-Shirley last evening? I?m also interested in hearing your thoughts on it. I certainly have my own thoughts on it, but I would like to hear what others think before I give my thoughts.

Jeff

_______________________________________________ NOMC mailing list NOMC at lists.nbpcb.org http://lists.nbpcb.org/listinfo.cgi/nomc-nbpcb.org

Hi folks, I?m glad we?re all talking about this. We need to watch these guys closely. I think Kristen is right. They went out of their way to talk about who was available and who wasn?t as if the COMS teachers would not have made themselves available. It could also be that there are more blind teachers with NOMC. But I still like the idea that the blind NOMC teachers were higher skilled and looked better when they did their research. I don?t think you will ever sell them on the hours and hours of non-visual practice that we get. I?ve had Nora Griffin Shirley under blindfold 18 years ago and unless she has changed radically, she just isn?t a believer. She doesn?t travel well herself did her hearing loss, and since she?s never been exposed to proper death line training, she has no experience to tell her that the things we know to be true really Work. 18 years ago, I thought she was kind of a wimp. Part of the problem was she never disclosed her hearing loss and until we got her under blindfold we had no reason to expect it. She volunteered for that training by the way. Jeff is familiar with it, they were calling at Texas confidence builders back then. I have been gone for seven years, so I don?t know what Texas is doing now. About getting more people training as comms, I really don?t want to see blind people go there. I want to see them come to tech or go through our apprenticeship programs because I don?t believe the comms will ever be good at teaching non-visual monitoring. They will never give these guys the hours and training that we can, and they will always turn out second rate orientation of mobility instructors. I have met a few blind, visually impaired COMS, and there are so many things missing. We used to get them as interns at Chris Cole and you could always tell the blind or visually impaired ones. They just didn?t seem to have it together. I even had one guy who insisted on taking his dog on lessons with clients. That is a whole different story. I?ll tell you guys someday. This email is already too long. Anyway, let?s keep joining, participating and keeping our eyes on OSA. I?m not very good at going to the Monday night meetings, because after I get home from work, I tend to forget about them, go, eat supper, wind down and crash early. I need to make more of an effort to remember what?s going on. Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 20, 2023, at 5:14?PM, Kristen Sims <ksims at latech.edu> wrote: ? Hello Jeff and all, I was in attendance. I have heard their presentation before at IMC18. I did notice some differences in the presentation which I found interesting. First, they said that they primarily found NOMCs available and willing to be observed but put it differently in Poland where they said it more along the lines of these are the successful strategies and these are the people who are using them. This could have been based on the audience, but I felt like they were hiding behind the ?this was who was available? comment. Also, they were focused more on accommodations last night rather than methods which did led to an interesting discussion in both the chat and conversation. Methods are not accommodations and maybe that was the point they were trying to make. While at IMC Casey and I had several conversations with Nora, and she did seem truly interested when we were discussing the merits of the type of training our NOMC candidates go through at Louisiana Tech. She is also Southern so maybe it was just that we could understand each other in a group of people who did not speak English. I doubt the 900+ hours of occlusion practice will be adopted into other programs due to the mass skepticism we received when Casey and I presented about our program at IMC. What makes me worry is that they may be missing the point, or at least not stressing it, that the reason those individuals they observed were able to use non-visual techniques effectively was because of the hundreds of hours they spent honing their personal travel skills through immersion/training and then practicing these methods under an instructor who is also using these techniques during internships or apprenticeships for hundreds more. There was another section that they glossed over but I found important and that was the student perspective of having a blind instructor. Far and away the students felt not only ?no fear? -- I say that in quotes because of course they didn?t-- but the students benefitted from the role modeling the instructor was able to provide. We already know this, but it is nice to have validation. I plan to keep watching this research for updates and will share information as I receive it especially about the focus group that was mentioned in the presentation.

Just as an FYI, the next OMSA PD presentation will be in November, and it will be on using mobility aids such as walkers and wheelchairs. The person presenting is from the UK and will be discussing the implications for people who are using a cane or guide dog. OMSA also has a Mobility Monday which is a similar format as last night?s presentation. There is also a town hall meeting every month which are also informative as it I feel like it gives me perspective on what O&M professionals are dealing with in other states. That is my plug for being involved in OMSA if you made it this far into my email!

Kristen J. Sims, MEd. NOMC NCUEB Instructor, Orientation and Mobility Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness Louisiana Tech University 210 Woodard Hall 318-257-4554 ksims at latech.edu

From: NOMC <nomc-bounces at lists.nbpcb.org> On Behalf Of Altman, Jeff Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 10:46 AM To: NOMC Mailing list <NOMC at lists.nbpcb.org> Subject: [Nomc] Wonderring about how many attended the Presentation last evening

Hello Everyone,

I?m wondering how many of you attended the ?Successful Strategies Employed by O&M Candidates and Blind O&M Specialists,? presented by Dr. Nora Griffin-Shirley last evening? I?m also interested in hearing your thoughts on it. I certainly have my own thoughts on it, but I would like to hear what others think before I give my thoughts.

Jeff

_______________________________________________ NOMC mailing list NOMC at lists.nbpcb.org http://lists.nbpcb.org/listinfo.cgi/nomc-nbpcb.org

An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.nbpcb.org/private.cgi/nomc-nbpcb.org/attachments/20230922/f006b3b2/attachment.htm>

Hi everyone, One of the themes that seems to underlie a lot of the comments here is the politics of knowledge construction and mobilization. One of the things President Riccobono said when he was talking to the rehab conference at the national convention was that many people outside our network don?t want blind people to have power in the blindness field. ?Epistemology? refers to the ways of knowing and approaches to constructing knowledge; nobody can simultaneously use every approach to constructing knowledge because some are mutually exclusive. If we look at the epistemology used in this current study, it still centers a theoretical framework that has fundamentally assumed, taken for granted, this idea that sighted people know better than blind people. A lot of the theory of the Vision-Centered approach is taught today with an aura of ?This is how it is? and ?This is what it is,? so many people, blind and sighted, who might have otherwise chosen our approach, have invested time, effort, and other resources into learning this approach and building their professional identity around it. It is entirely possible that these researchers that we?re meeting now have embraced this Vision-Centered approach even if it is not who they naturally are or what they naturally would choose if they had understood the Structured Discovery approach as a viable or superior alternative when they were entering the profession. If we take the time to really get to know people, we may find that we can reach that inner human who was not necessarily determined to maintain sighted dominance over the blind, or we may find that this is exactly who they are. For those who are willing to come in our direction, this can be a good thing. We cannot rehabilitate all of the Vision-Centered practitioners, but we can influence some individuals, leading to better blindness services provided to all the blind people that those practitioners meet thereafter. To me, it seems that following the Vision-Centered approach led to asking research questions that a Structured Discovery practitioner would not have asked. Once they asked those questions, many of us participated to help tell them what they needed to know, and this may have contributed to incremental progress. If we really want to change the system of research about blindness, I think it would help a lot if more Structured Discovery practitioners would take the plunge into PhD world and become researchers ourselves. That?s an individual decision. PhD world can be a lonely place without a team around you with a commitment to deconstructing epistemic ableism. Aloha, Justin Justin Mark Hideaki Salisbury he/him/his Phone: 808.797.8606 Email: President at Alumni.ECU.edu<mailto:President at Alumni.ECU.edu> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-salisbury ResearchGate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Justin_Salisbury ?Once social change begins, it cannot be reversed. You cannot un-educate the person who has learned to read. You cannot humiliate the person who feels pride. You cannot oppress the people who are not afraid anymore.? Cesar Chavez From: NOMC <nomc-bounces at lists.nbpcb.org> On Behalf Of Jimmy Morris Sent: Friday, September 22, 2023 4:47 PM To: Jane Lansaw <widearc2000 at gmail.com> Cc: NOMC Mailing list <nomc at lists.nbpcb.org> Subject: Re: [Nomc] Wonderring about how many attended the Presentation last evening I absolutely agree with your comments, Desmond. We have to meet people where they are and then work on bringing them to where we want them to be. All of this takes time. I think this is our best time and opportunity ever to start slowly possibly making true change. The only way will ever know is if we try. Jimmie Morris On Sep 22, 2023, at 2:55 PM, Jane Lansaw <widearc2000 at gmail.com<mailto:widearc2000 at gmail.com>> wrote: ?I guess we might as well. Maybe it will keep them from getting worse. We are all really stands between our philosophy and entropy. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 22, 2023, at 8:27?AM, jackson.dezman at gmail.com<mailto:jackson.dezman at gmail.com> wrote: ? Great stories you had as well Jane. I would have to agree that we have top notch training. However, the fact of the matter is COMS aren?t going anywhere and I?m pretty sure there will continue to be blind folks going through those programs. So, while I don?t believe that side of the profession will ever adopt our standards, I think it?s to our advantage to continue to find common ground and use our influence as much as possible. Dezman From: NOMC <nomc-bounces at lists.nbpcb.org<mailto:nomc-bounces at lists.nbpcb.org>> On Behalf Of Jane Lansaw Sent: Friday, September 22, 2023 9:01 AM To: Kristen Sims <ksims at latech.edu<mailto:ksims at latech.edu>> Cc: NOMC Mailing list <nomc at lists.nbpcb.org<mailto:nomc at lists.nbpcb.org>> Subject: Re: [Nomc] Wonderring about how many attended the Presentation last evening Hi folks, I?m glad we?re all talking about this. We need to watch these guys closely. I think Kristen is right. They went out of their way to talk about who was available and who wasn?t as if the COMS teachers would not have made themselves available. It could also be that there are more blind teachers with NOMC. But I still like the idea that the blind NOMC teachers were higher skilled and looked better when they did their research. I don?t think you will ever sell them on the hours and hours of non-visual practice that we get. I?ve had Nora Griffin Shirley under blindfold 18 years ago and unless she has changed radically, she just isn?t a believer. She doesn?t travel well herself did her hearing loss, and since she?s never been exposed to proper death line training, she has no experience to tell her that the things we know to be true really Work. 18 years ago, I thought she was kind of a wimp. Part of the problem was she never disclosed her hearing loss and until we got her under blindfold we had no reason to expect it. She volunteered for that training by the way. Jeff is familiar with it, they were calling at Texas confidence builders back then. I have been gone for seven years, so I don?t know what Texas is doing now. About getting more people training as comms, I really don?t want to see blind people go there. I want to see them come to tech or go through our apprenticeship programs because I don?t believe the comms will ever be good at teaching non-visual monitoring. They will never give these guys the hours and training that we can, and they will always turn out second rate orientation of mobility instructors. I have met a few blind, visually impaired COMS, and there are so many things missing. We used to get them as interns at Chris Cole and you could always tell the blind or visually impaired ones. They just didn?t seem to have it together. I even had one guy who insisted on taking his dog on lessons with clients. That is a whole different story. I?ll tell you guys someday. This email is already too long. Anyway, let?s keep joining, participating and keeping our eyes on OSA. I?m not very good at going to the Monday night meetings, because after I get home from work, I tend to forget about them, go, eat supper, wind down and crash early. I need to make more of an effort to remember what?s going on. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 20, 2023, at 5:14?PM, Kristen Sims <ksims at latech.edu<mailto:ksims at latech.edu>> wrote: ? Hello Jeff and all, I was in attendance. I have heard their presentation before at IMC18. I did notice some differences in the presentation which I found interesting. First, they said that they primarily found NOMCs available and willing to be observed but put it differently in Poland where they said it more along the lines of these are the successful strategies and these are the people who are using them. This could have been based on the audience, but I felt like they were hiding behind the ?this was who was available? comment. Also, they were focused more on accommodations last night rather than methods which did led to an interesting discussion in both the chat and conversation. Methods are not accommodations and maybe that was the point they were trying to make. While at IMC Casey and I had several conversations with Nora, and she did seem truly interested when we were discussing the merits of the type of training our NOMC candidates go through at Louisiana Tech. She is also Southern so maybe it was just that we could understand each other in a group of people who did not speak English. I doubt the 900+ hours of occlusion practice will be adopted into other programs due to the mass skepticism we received when Casey and I presented about our program at IMC. What makes me worry is that they may be missing the point, or at least not stressing it, that the reason those individuals they observed were able to use non-visual techniques effectively was because of the hundreds of hours they spent honing their personal travel skills through immersion/training and then practicing these methods under an instructor who is also using these techniques during internships or apprenticeships for hundreds more. There was another section that they glossed over but I found important and that was the student perspective of having a blind instructor. Far and away the students felt not only ?no fear? -- I say that in quotes because of course they didn?t-- but the students benefitted from the role modeling the instructor was able to provide. We already know this, but it is nice to have validation. I plan to keep watching this research for updates and will share information as I receive it especially about the focus group that was mentioned in the presentation. Just as an FYI, the next OMSA PD presentation will be in November, and it will be on using mobility aids such as walkers and wheelchairs. The person presenting is from the UK and will be discussing the implications for people who are using a cane or guide dog. OMSA also has a Mobility Monday which is a similar format as last night?s presentation. There is also a town hall meeting every month which are also informative as it I feel like it gives me perspective on what O&M professionals are dealing with in other states. That is my plug for being involved in OMSA if you made it this far into my email! Kristen J. Sims, MEd. NOMC NCUEB Instructor, Orientation and Mobility Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness Louisiana Tech University 210 Woodard Hall 318-257-4554 ksims at latech.edu<mailto:ksims at latech.edu> From: NOMC <nomc-bounces at lists.nbpcb.org<mailto:nomc-bounces at lists.nbpcb.org>> On Behalf Of Altman, Jeff Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 10:46 AM To: NOMC Mailing list <NOMC at lists.nbpcb.org<mailto:NOMC at lists.nbpcb.org>> Subject: [Nomc] Wonderring about how many attended the Presentation last evening Hello Everyone, I?m wondering how many of you attended the ?Successful Strategies Employed by O&M Candidates and Blind O&M Specialists,? presented by Dr. Nora Griffin-Shirley last evening? I?m also interested in hearing your thoughts on it. I certainly have my own thoughts on it, but I would like to hear what others think before I give my thoughts. Jeff _______________________________________________ NOMC mailing list NOMC at lists.nbpcb.org<mailto:NOMC at lists.nbpcb.org> http://lists.nbpcb.org/listinfo.cgi/nomc-nbpcb.org _______________________________________________ NOMC mailing list NOMC at lists.nbpcb.org<mailto:NOMC at lists.nbpcb.org> http://lists.nbpcb.org/listinfo.cgi/nomc-nbpcb.org